My solution to a bunch of shrine problems

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My solution to a bunch of shrine problems

Postby h11471392085 » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:41 pm

This solution works under a couple assumptions:

Assumptions/problems
    1. Shrine of rhythm is to be removed as a scoring shrine, but the mechanic is fun for challenge, and for speedruns when taken late.
    2. Shrine of No Return has never been viable or fun for anything but as a challenge
    3. Shrine of Pace is overpowered as shit on certain characters, and superstrong on others.
    4. Shrine of War and Space are never used for anything but scoring or as a challenge
    5. Shrine of Darkness, Glass, Risk, Phasing and Blood homogenizes the game too much if they're available in 1-1 shriner all the time
    6. Shrine of Peace, Sacrifice and Chance work good in current implementation
    7. Bombing shriner shrines is OP and unfun
    8. RNG is what makes roguelikes fun to

No need to agree with all my opinions/assumptions, the solution is somewhat flexible.

Reasoning behind assumptions:

    1. See the Shrine of Rhythm thread. Some people love it for challenge runs and it's an interesthng mechanic to get in a late level as a trap door. It being good for score runs is bad though as many people dislike having to pay constant attention for a full run.
    2. I know nobody that's used it before the latest patch for any purpose but for the challenge. The last patch attempted to buff it but only made it easy to abuse.
    3. Pace is exclusively a speedrunning shrine, and you're only punished for taking it if you go slow - something you're already punished for when speedrunning. So above a certain skill level (depending on character) it's a nobrainer to take it when speedrunning and doesn't add any interesting decision-making to the game.
    4. Not much to add, they'd need a major redesign to be interesting.
    5. I don't find it enjoyable to neither watch nor play where one of the strongest strategies is to reset over and over until you get a specific shrine in the shriner - and it therefore appearing in 100% of that persons runs.
    7. If you can handle the dragons, you get yourself a late-game level build on 1-1. This homogenizes the game just like point 5.

List of changes

    1. Shrine of Rhythm no longer gives 4x multiplier
    2. Steam achievements for beating the game with Shrine of Rhythm, No Return, war, (space??) and/or Pace without failing (what failing is depends on shrine).
    3. Shrine of No Return, War, Space and Pace exclusive to the shriner
    4. Revert the latest change to Shrine of No return, impossible to get rid of the red square.
    4. Shrine of Pace no longer gives items (has no upsides).
    5. Shriner shrines cannot be bombed, neither before nor after taking them. (E.g. dragons always spawn in impossible configurations)
    6. Shrine of Darkness, Glass, Risk, Phasing and Blood removed from shriner.
    7. [optional] Shriner moved to the lobby, or to a pre-lobby like All-char character selection



Reasoning behind changes

    3. Nobody uses these out in the wild (except for pace), and war/space is really only useful in 1-1. They're used commonly for bombing but if we want tons of maps just make them more common in barrels or something.
    7. I know some people cried when other secret shops were removed from 1-1. Shriner can be a lobby NPC to solve that.

I was gonna write up a nice wall of text saying why all changes are awesome, but after having procrastinated that for a few days I'll just let you ask any questions if a specific point seems weird.
It's kind of big changes though and I don't have especially high hopes of it getting through, but if I had godlike powers I'd do something like this.
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Re: My solution to a bunch of shrine problems

Postby duneaught » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:36 am

I will paraphrase your ideas in my words. You can correct me if I misunderstand your proposal:
You are suggesting that the shriner be an NPC that provides the option for challenge runs. The shrines provided by the shriner would be exclusive to that shop.

I don't really like this idea. It's not a bad thing that shrines have varying utility for speed or score leaderboard placement. I also don't mind that a particular shrine is necessary for a top rank. 99% of players won't be vying for leaderboards.


From your suggestions, I would be in favor of making it such that the shriner shrines don't drop items when bombed. I would just remove the shrine drop, as I do NOT like the idea of impossible dragon configurations.

Oh and I am strongly in favor of making the Curse of No Return permanent again.
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Re: My solution to a bunch of shrine problems

Postby h11471392085 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:00 am

duneaught wrote:I will paraphrase your ideas in my words. You can correct me if I misunderstand your proposal:
You are suggesting that the shriner be an NPC that provides the option for challenge runs. The shrines provided by the shriner would be exclusive to that shop.

Not all shrines would be exclusive.
Exclusive to shriner: No Return, War, Space, Pace
Both in shriner and outside: Shrine of Rhythm
Only outside shriner: Darkness, Glass, Risk, Phasing, Blood, Peace

I'm currently working on a thread asking for ideas to nerfing pace, if that's done it can definitely be moved outside shriner. Only reason I put in in the shriner is because it was too strong to have outside.
Shriner would mostly be a challenge run NPC, but War and Space are there for the same reason that SoR was in the original shriner, to reduce RNG in scorerunning. Taking a shrine wouldn't disable leaderboards.
duneaught wrote:I don't really like this idea. It's not a bad thing that shrines have varying utility for speed or score leaderboard placement. I also don't mind that a particular shrine is necessary for a top rank. 99% of players won't be vying for leaderboards.

We certainly need to take a decision here on whether to balance the game for the masses, or for the top players. The shrines moved into the shriner are hard to use for newbies, or "newbie-traps", in that they don't give a lot of benefit, and it's really hard to know what they do in the game at the moment or have an extreme downside.

We have 9 pages of people hating on Shrine of Rhythm being necessary for scoreruns. That's not 100% applicable here though because it also changes the game drastically and some hate it, but it's a problem (IMO) if it's so strong that you _have_ to use it because
1. It homogenizes runs for the people vying for top ranks. I'm pretty sure the people that people who spends hours grinding for a top rank would want variation in their game so it's not doing the same thing over and over. The rate of homogenization obviously depends on the strength and effect of the shrine.
2. If the particular shrine or item is not readily available in a shriner, and it is necessary for a WR, top-ranks become an RNG-party with resets over and over until they finally get it. This could be seen extensively in scoreruns previous to shriner having Shrine of Rhythm. If we want Pace in every speedrun it'd probably be a smart move to put it in a shriner.

duneaught wrote:From your suggestions, I would be in favor of making it such that the shriner shrines don't drop items when bombed. I would just remove the shrine drop, as I do NOT like the idea of impossible dragon configurations.

The shrines would be free, and the only reason to bomb them would be to get the items from them. If this is done with impossible dragons, them being indestructible, or simply not dropping anything doesn't really matter in my opinion. I thought impossible dragons would be fun because then shrines would work the same way as outside shriner, but it might be abusable if you get a lucky weapon+freeze drop on 1-1.

duneaught wrote:Oh and I am strongly in favor of making the Curse of No Return permanent again.

Whoo, we agree on something! :D

I expected lots of disagreement on many points as they are quite radical, and might not completely with the direction the game has gone in so far, but I wanted to post my thoughts somewhere :)
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Re: My solution to a bunch of shrine problems

Postby Jack Of Games » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:31 am

Here's what I want the shriner to be:

A pre-lobby NPC that has every shrine. You choose a shrine by activating it, and every run until you change it has that shrine show up, guaranteed, on 1-1. There would also be a way to turn this off.

Shriner would not be active for deathless, all character, story modes, or the daily.

This would:
1) reduce a lot of reset grinding for leaderboard chasing, both score (1-1 war) and speed (many options)
2) add a way to consistently get challenge runs, like you suggest
3) add an interesting meta to racing and speedrunning
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Re: My solution to a bunch of shrine problems

Postby Arachness » Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:25 pm

I really like a lot of the ideas in this thread.

2. Steam achievements for beating the game with Shrine of Rhythm, No Return, war, (space??) and/or Pace without failing (what failing is depends on shrine).

I like this. You get recognition for completing something challenging in the game, but it's totally optional. If you're into Achievement hunting or want challenges, it's here. I don't think we need an Achievement for completing All Zones Mode with every Shrine (Peace and Space come to mind).

The Shrine of No Return curse should come back. You can't just get rid of any other Shrine's curse that easily so what's the point of being able to do it with this one? Maybe a better compromise could be made, like a lesser penalty, but there should be some penalty. The entire point of Shrines is to get some benefit but have to pay a price or deal with some kind of challenge.

We have 9 pages of people hating on Shrine of Rhythm being necessary for score runs. That's not 100% applicable here though because it also changes the game drastically and some hate it, but it's a problem (IMO) if it's so strong that you _have_ to use it because
1. It homogenizes runs for the people vying for top ranks. I'm pretty sure the people that people who spends hours grinding for a top rank would want variation in their game so it's not doing the same thing over and over. The rate of homogenization obviously depends on the strength and effect of the shrine.

The thing I'm most reminded of is when we did the CoNDOR Score races, and most people involved said it was getting exhausting to constantly do back-to-back Shrine of Rhythm runs. So there's one example of where SoR becomes tiring and tedious. (I don't mean to speak for anyone, so please correct me if I've misinterpreted anyone who participated in that tourney.)

Here's what I want the shriner to be:

A pre-lobby NPC that has every shrine. You choose a shrine by activating it, and every run until you change it has that shrine show up, guaranteed, on 1-1. There would also be a way to turn this off.

Shriner would not be active for deathless, all character, story modes, or the daily.

This would:
1) reduce a lot of reset grinding for leaderboard chasing, both score (1-1 war) and speed (many options)
2) add a way to consistently get challenge runs, like you suggest
3) add an interesting meta to racing and speedrunning

I like this but I feel like there needs to be some kind of price or penalty, especially if you can use this in All Zones Mode. To just be able to walk up and pick any shrine for free and be able to submit to the Leaderboards seems too easy to me.

Maybe in order for those shrines to be selectable in the lobby, you'd have to complete All Zones Mode after activating that Shrine first in a nonseeded run?
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Re: My solution to a bunch of shrine problems

Postby h11471392085 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:26 am

I just came up with a simple idea to fix 'challenge'-runs. Entering a seed in seeded all zones mode containing the name of a shrine, or some shorthand of it, makes it guaranteed to show up in 1-1.

Example shorthand list:
SR - shrine of rhythm
SN- shrine of no return
SW - shrine of war
SS - shrine of space
SP - shrine of pace
...

Entering one of these as the seed, will either make the engine randomize a seed until it finds one with the given shrine on 1-1, or randomize a seed and afterwards add the shrine to 1-1.

Additionally, you could specify several shrines, all of which will show up in 1-1 - for the extra crazy Rhythm-noreturn-war-space-pace runs!
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Re: My solution to a bunch of shrine problems

Postby duneaught » Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:50 am

h11471392085 wrote:I just came up with a simple idea to fix 'challenge'-runs. Entering a seed in seeded all zones mode containing the name of a shrine, or some shorthand of it, makes it guaranteed to show up in 1-1.


Using "seeded all zones" to generate challenge runs is a great idea.
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